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Post by Pimpmaster McSlap-Bitch on Jul 18, 2005 18:10:30 GMT -5
I`m surprised there isn`t a topic about this yet (and if there is, I`m surprised I missed it), considering the unusually high concentration of people who have studied it or are current practitioners on this board. An open discussion would be cool, since it gives a lot of people a chance to put in their two cents, but I guess I dunno where to start...
What`s the attraction? I liked Buddhism because it`s goals and the means to accomplish them were coporeal and realistic to me. The advocation of peace and compassion is something I think I`ll always hold with me (though since throwing in the towel I see exceptions). The eight fold path is perfect, and an ideal, logical and 'karmically' streamlined way to live. Awareness and mindfulness are great too, and I wish I were as mindful and aware as I was when I was practicing.
But that`s the price I pay for my happiness. Though Buddhism advocates all the right things it just ended up not working out. I have a bad memory, but I`ll try to remember my observations, with a little help from a notebook, which, at the turn of my metamorphasis from Buddhist to NonBuddhist, I wrote little in. Bliss began seeming drug like, putting a veil, albeit a marvelously beautiful one, over what I would normally see. What I would normally see became to me bland and terribly mundane, yet my hyperaware and at times elusive version of reality was the one I was sure was real.
I remember not caring much about things, important things like honor and respect, more specifically, the respect people showed towards me. I`d think of a disrespectful person as lost or confused and not confront them about their audacity, however small or large it was. Obviously this isn`t the way to hold oneself. The disrespectful and dishonorable won`t start respecting you and being honorable by themselves, and individual disrespectful actions may not even be noticed but by you if you don`t bring them up. Buddhism, I believe, takes the path of least resistance with a smile on its face.
Suffering is birthed of desire. And so I eliminated most of mine, which I felt made me mannequin-esque and without personality. One desire I couldn`t rid myself of was that for love, among others, and I think this was the reason I stopped practicing. I have it written "Life is love, or rather love is the spice of life". Without love, what do you have? How can you enjoy your food if you don`t want it? How can you enjoy your future, or mold it, if you don`t want it?
Attachment... meh, I`m bored now. But I`m sure I have something to say about attachment...
I may have been practicing incorrectly, and nearing the end of my Buddhist life (the beginning worked so well for me btw) I even sought a retreat so I could be taught how to think (Yeah, umm problem right there, but that`s the situation every religious man is in). Looking back, I would have liked to go join a retreat for a couple of months, just to check it out. Maybe I would have become a better Buddhist. But I`m quite happy with who I am now. I`m glad I was a Buddhist for... like... 3 or so years - I learned a lot, but I guess it just doesn`t work, for me or for anybody who wants to be an individual (bold and general statement, yes).
Anyway, just my mish-mash thoughts and experience. Thoughts anyone?
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Post by lunarfist on Jul 18, 2005 18:28:43 GMT -5
Buddhism is a lifelong path with a goal of Enlightenment. Its not a weekend a month and 2 weeks out of the year type deal. Siddarth suffered long and hard to provide us a path to Buddha. You can use his words to guide you but even Buddha says he cant take you to Enlightenment. It is up to you. Obviously emotions are important to you so maybe Buddhism is the right path right now, try yoga.
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Post by Pimpmaster McSlap-Bitch on Jul 18, 2005 19:55:15 GMT -5
He he he, I knew you of all people would post It`s true that it isn`t a weekend or month ordeal. I know this. Like I said, I was a practicing Buddhist for 3 years; I know the stories, the sayings, the guidelines and rules, the state of mind and living; 3 years is a long time to become accustom to something; and I felt the state of my being worsen towards the end of it. Note, this was while I was a Buddhist and followed Buddhist ways, not after. However, despite my best efforts, Buddhism deassembled my character and didn`t help me rebuild all the parts of myself I shed. Emotions are important to me. Infact, I`d say your sentance sums up quite nicely why I stopped practicing. Honestly, to be in a bad situation and strive to see the best of it to the point when such striving becomes second nature, is this truely the most sensible thing to do? When faced with a problem that is personal, for instance, yours and yours alone, to see it in a neutral light, almost as if it doesn`t exist? I bet emotions are important to you to. Why else would you aim to end yours and everybody elses suffering? Why aim for Nirvana? What is Nirvana? Define it in detail without using a word that pertains to an emotion your definition. What is suffering? What is its opposite? I love Buddhism, but it isn`t without its flaws. From outside the box (or maybe with 20/20 hindsight) they`re clear, no disrespect intended. *rests in mountain position*
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Post by lunarfist on Jul 18, 2005 22:12:30 GMT -5
Thats the problem with everyday reality. It interferes with the process of Enlightenment. When you achieve Enlightenment, you become a Buddha, and are able to trancesend all these worldly ills. It is becoming one with life, the universe and every existence. Of course you cant explain it, its a state Dharma. Thats why alot of buddhists (meaing practioners of buddhism) seek solitary lives so they can persue Enlightenment. I have great profound respect for what siddarth has achieved and i can only hope to become Enlightened in some lifetime. But i am trapped with life's responibilities and burden. and i continue to analyze and meditate on what life, conscience and purpose mean. I have gain great insight with such practice and strive to reach a low level super conscience before i expire. As to why your jaded, you tell me.
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Post by Pimpmaster McSlap-Bitch on Jul 18, 2005 22:41:00 GMT -5
Here here, Lunar. I concur. Anybody else care to comment?
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Post by Makku on Jul 19, 2005 2:31:15 GMT -5
I was a practicing Buddhist for nearly a year.
Experienced the same thing, Kage. You know where I stand on all of this-- illusions and whatnot. Though, if following Buddhism would help anyone to lead a better life, whatever. Go for it.
Though, I never was too fond of the self-immolation thing.
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Post by lunarfist on Jul 19, 2005 7:52:54 GMT -5
I dont understand what problems you all have with buddhism. You expect everything to start going your way? That deals with karma. If your positive then you build positive karma and positive things will happen in your life. Buddhism recognizes life is suffering. I never said that it will bring you riches, fame and women. I know for a fact that Makku has a negative mindset about himself, so that is 90% of his problems right there. Develop a positive mindset and you'll see life easing up. Again it all starts with you, moniter your thoughts of negativity and refuse to think them. Instead supplement a positive thought. Yea I know it sounds like becoming an airhead but its not and happiness is worth having.
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Post by Makku on Jul 19, 2005 9:40:48 GMT -5
And that's EXACTLY my problem with Buddhism. Refusing naturally occuring emotions and actions. Fuck that.
If it's going to happen, it's going to happen.
And, just as a sidenote-- the negative thing-- that pretty much came after I started.
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Post by lunarfist on Jul 19, 2005 11:26:35 GMT -5
I think the point your missing about the overall picture of reality is that it can be perceived in many different ways. "Truth" is subjective. Sure there are facts to describe the world but even facts can be reinterpeted, rejustified. Right and Wrongs are just a context our society uses to remain stable. Sure you can use "murder is wrong" but it is natural. It exists and is part of nature. Animals do it for food, self protection, terrorital dispusts and general bullying. As humans, since we can appreciate life and its wonders, we developed system to prevent people from rampent murder, (laws, religion, moral compasses). But killing does occur and on large scales (mostly due to nationlism/religion). Death is just part of the cycle. You cant escape it. You can hide behind your xboxs and dvds and be free from its effets, but believe me, its there and waiting to destroy your view of the world. Its a story told time and time again, dont think your unique. Now it comes back to your mindset. Refusing naturally occurring emotions and actions is not what i was talking about. Its the act that you become negative when your in a stressful situation that makes it emotionally scarring. and in turn begins a cycle of dispair. Be positive until the issue(s) are resolved and you will see that it wasnt so bad. And i'm not saying become a blonde bimbo, only that you remind yourself that your going to be ok, that you can deal with it, that once its done you will have a greater understanding of those that truely suffer in other parts of the world feel. In the end this will help you develop compassion for mankind instead of thinking humans are evil and bad and so on and so on. also, maintaining a positive mindset takes time as well. Its a habit that you have to develop.
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Post by Pimpmaster McSlap-Bitch on Jul 19, 2005 23:43:06 GMT -5
I believe it`s unhealthy to lie to yourself, making yourself believe everything is fine when everything is not. I just don`t see how this can be psychologically healthy. It`s repression. Sure you can say 'I`ll be fine in the end', but the truth is you won`t. Because if it isn`t this, it`s the next thing and so on until our inevitable demise (Thanks for reminding us, btw, as if we`d forget - I can`t help but be humored by the air of pretensiousness, as if we haven`t told you that we once dedicated ourselves fully at one time to our once held beliefs. The same to the comment about not being unique - I`m sure we`re all mature enough to recognize this). There are two ways (or more ways) to look at a situation one would normally consider stressful. But to think that our stress isn`t valid or logical in all situations is a little over the top. Now I know you didn`t say this, but the Four Noble Truths does, more or less. Attachment and desire is the root of suffering, which for all intents and purposes IS life (Life is suffering), and attachment and desire are minds of ignorance (or attachment and desire are rooted in ignorance). Death is imminent so attachment is futile - desire follows suit - this is all logical and so suffering is illogical. Being logical according to this system of logic, one should not suffer. But I believe there are times when we should be stressed and upset. When our house burns down. When our children die. When, as children, our parents die. And a million other reasons when our worlds are turned upside down, in reality or in the mind. With this I`m sure you disagree. After all, if it happens, it happens right? After all nothing is promised for forever. Well maybe we are all too accustomed to a false sense security, but shit, that`s what love is. Somebody who has lost (a home, a child, whatever) SHOULD be stressed because they love it and now that love is lost, gone, whatever. The same for wanting and not getting. Sure this is attachment and desire respectively, but the opposite, nonattachment and indifference, makes for a boring and hollow existance, sure without suffering, but also without life. Vive. If we`re not upset about what we miss and what we don`t have, how can we be happy with what we have while we have it? What do we have to love, to like, or to get excited about? What is there to look forward to? Ahhhh, and immediately at the completion of that last question I`m reminded of my own experience, feeling complete hopelessness and helplessness. Theres nothing to look forward to but perpetual suffering. Hmmm... Maybe the eight fold path will lead me to one thing that I can look forward to - Nirvana. Nirvana is the end of suffering so just following the path should lead to it eventually... Hmmm.... ... I`ve lost my train of thought. Time to throw together randomly occuring thoughts. What is life without love? How can we be happy without being sad? Doesn`t this fly in the face of interdependence? This is assuming that we are other than you describe, and (I know I throw the word around so much that I`m even beginning to think that my ego a little too sensitive) pretensious, as if you have greater understanding than us. To that I say I dunno how long you`ve been a Buddhist, but don`t forget, we`ve followed the same path that you`re on right now. Infact, it`s behind us. Lastly, on a sidenote, you`ve said "'murder is wrong' but". There should be no 'but' if you follow the first of the Five Precepts. Since animals also murder, how can they ever rise up the samsara chain? Quotes self: Answer? Bah, I`m spent... for tonight...
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Post by lunarfist on Jul 20, 2005 15:16:07 GMT -5
talking about murder and death and its context in our society about right and wrongs was me just cutting off the convo at the extreme path these convos usually take. But lets look at everyday life, how many times do you put urself done a day? See, this is where you have to be honest with yourself. How many times to do reflect back on embrassing, humliating experiences or think how much of an ass you were in a particular situtation (usually involving girls). Thats having a negative mindset. get rid of that mindset is all i'm saying. Be positive and positive things will happen to you. I say this because i have been there, in the deepest blackest (yes even blacker then kage) holes of depression. But I've overcome it and things got better. Took years believe me. If you refuse to believe me then so be it. Now i'm not saying you should deny yourself sadness as it comes, you just have to understand where it comes from. Yea if you lose a child or love one, you mourn. But life goes on, hating life from then on in, will ruin your future happiness. Its a process, what can i say. You have to be strong for others, dont think your ever alone. I'm saying all this because i anticipate your retorts, so i may sound like I'm coming off pretenious. But what do i care : ) its for your own good. What is life without love? despair for most. For me, its normal, and i am content. I have a different pyschological make up then most so i can say that. Yea sure my mom loves me, but thats a baseline. You can appreciate happiness more if you suffer, but most people continue to be sad for no other reason then their negativity. Why take prozac, xanax, etc? because these people cant moniter and control their negativity. Yea sure there are people with chemical imblances but not as much as the sales of "happy pills" suggest. I dont aim to end anyone's emotions per se, only to enhance it with positivty. But the things is you have to be honest with yourself about where this negativity comes from. You fuck up, you pay and move on. dont continue to dwell on the fuck up. Nirvana? me, i'm seeking Enlightenment, sure its same thing so quit asking be to describe it. You cant. Emotions? It's a higher conscience. It transcends emotions. The closest you can use human emotion to describe it, is universal compassion.
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Post by Pimpmaster McSlap-Bitch on Jul 20, 2005 23:17:59 GMT -5
It most certainly seems as if you believe that everybody who isn`t a Buddhist has a negative outlook on life, since Makku and I are in the convo, more specifically, me and Makku. I don`t know how well you think you know Makku, but I`m quite sure that you do not know me. You say you`re anticipating my retorts (though I see no evidence of this) - maybe you shouldn`t 'suppose'. One of my favorite phrases is 'You assume too much', and it seems like it`s holding true right now. Being honest with myself, I don`t put myself down at all. From time to time negative thoughts may enter my mind, as they do yours, but they are easily dealt with. I come off none the worse. And as for that 'usually involving girls' comment... heh, I`m not even going to bother.
It`s obvious that you`re speaking about your own experience when you talk about ridding oneself of a negative mindset through Buddhism. But do you believe that`s the reason everybody becomes Buddhist? I suppose the more direct question would be, do you truely believe that everybody has had the same experience as you? Allow me to make a curt observation - you`re projecting. From beginning to end.
Your past experiences are different from mine. And Makkus. And probably a lot of other peoples. Strictly speaking, everybodies. I don`t think you can even generalize about life. Life is suffering? Parts may be, yeah, but not all of it. I`ve been feeling great since the beginning of the year (when I officially renounced Buddhism coincidently). I don`t know how I can prove to you that I`m not lying, but from one man of Buddhist learning to another, trust me. All I`m speaking is truth, no underlying negitivity or secret intentions. That goes for every post I post on Deep Thoughts (minus the Dark Side one. Attribute that to personal growth).
You know, I was the same as you once (well, kinda, minus some of your problems - no offense, everybody has their own issues). I mean I was content. Then I realized I wanted more. And I realized I could get it. So can you. You don`t have to be content because you can make a difference. Imagine, with your mindset right now, getting what you want and then continuing your contentness. You can do it. You don`t have to settle, and you don`t have to settle for settling. Your psychology is only different because you made it that way, as I once did. This past paragraph may indeed be my projecting on to you, but I have a feeling I`ve done a semi-decent job of understanding where you`re coming from and have doctored a retort that is applicable to your current state of mind. Then again, I kind of am assuming that you`re thinking the same as I was, making the same mistake that you did. Heh, I suppose that, at the least, this is a demonstration of how easy it is to do.
*shrugs*
I`m sure you feel great with your Buddhist mind. Buddha knows I did. But what is it to feel good? There are many ways to feel good about your self and your life (like drugs, for a radical but illustrative example), but I think Canibus says it nicely when he says "There's a misconception That a movement in any direction is progression". You`re not moving in ANY direction, but a direction, which is one of many. You`re moving in a direction different from where you were, from bad to better is what I can see. But what direction are you moving in and how do you know it`s progression and will continue to be so? Yeah, you are probably witness to your own progression, but how do you know that the progression of your practice is the progression of your soul? Really, you could be on a self destructive path and not know it, being blinded by the beauty of mindfulness and tranquility, like a man taking another hit, only what blinds him is physical. What if Buddhism is a dead end? Meh.
Heh, it truely seems as if you haven`t read much of what has been said in the last posts.... meh.
Meh.
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Post by Makku on Jul 21, 2005 9:37:48 GMT -5
I'm not in any mood today to accept your assumptions about me.
Is it just me, or does the "usually involving girls" part sound like it is more of a personal experience than an assumption? See, here's the thing-- I don't look back on past events with regret. I have chosen this lifetime because I have something to learn from it, and anything that has happened thus far is surely a product of that.
Within each of us lies the power of our consent to health and to sickness, to riches and to poverty, to freedom and slavery. It is we who control these, and not another.
Before I go on. "I know for a fact that Makku has a negative mindset about himself" ~ Fuck you. As I said, I'm in no mood to accept your assumptions about me, who you only know as a few arranged black pixels on a screen. You know nothing about my mindset, my way of dealing with problems, or my past experiences. As Kage said, "You assume too much."
I'm surprised you haven't broken out in "HELP ME HELP YOU! HELP ME HELP YOU! HELP ME HELP YOU! HELP ME HELP YOU! HELP ME HELP YOU! HELP ME HELP YOU! HELP ME HELP YOU! HELP ME HELP YOU! HELP ME HELP YOU!"
You know what? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Firstly, life without love is not complete and utter despair. Yes, it's inconvenient, but it can most certainly be worked through. And, yes, you most certainly do have a different psychological makeup than most. Maybe that's the cause of your pointless connections and assumptions.
Ridiculous. Likenable to the quote "To die is to know that you're alive" Happiness exists with or without you, whether you choose to acknowledge that is completely up to you. For the most part, I choose not to. I'm rather content with my mindset, actually. It fits me. And how much suffering do you PLAN to experience? Are you without food? Do you live in a hut? Multiple sclerosis? Downs? The point is, save for being an amputee or contracting a horrible disease, you're not going to experience true suffering. Ever. Any "suffering" most have had up to now is more than likely brought about of their own volition because they refused to change things, save for events completely beyond their control (See world disaster, stock market crash, death, famine, plague)
I don't even really feel like continuing. Ending here.
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Post by lunarfist on Jul 22, 2005 18:12:08 GMT -5
I think this thread has gone on long enough. I have lost interest and my only point i want to make is; "Be positive and positive things will happen." Thats it. If you dont want to listen then so be it. But dont come emoing in slsk like you do. Of course this doesnt apply to kage, so you dont have to retort about that particular comment (as you have of my other comments that really didnt apply to you). Yes i talk from personal experiences, where else would i formulate these thoughts from. Relationships are work, and me saying "usually about girls" is applied equally to girls "about boys". But whatever. enjoy.
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Post by Sephiroth Kaizen on Jul 22, 2005 22:10:28 GMT -5
I actually don't know much about Buddhism outside of the minimum I was taught in school and overheard others discussing. As you know, I like to be fully educated on a topic or have an inkling of an idea of what's being discussed before participating... so I humbly bow out on this conversation and will lurk.
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