Problems with God

[Pimpmaster McSlap-Bitch]

I was reading an article about intelligent design, the Christian/Scientific half breed belief of recent political interest, in this months edition of Esquire magazine, when I noticed a question quite brilliantly composed;

"How intelligent is a designer whose design is so flawed that it can only be repaired by the sacrifice - the torture slaying [Judgment Day] - of his innocent offspring?"

I don`t think original sin cuts it personally. The article also got me wondering about why god chose to create an imperfect being, obviously imperfect before eating his share of forbidden fruit; seeing as how he was seduced into doing it and all. So much for man being made in gods likeness.

Anyway, that`s more than enough to ruffle feathers more than I`d like to... so what do you guys think?

[Athildur]

Well, I've always believed 'God' to be a bunch of hokey. No offense to those who don;t of course.

It's always seemed more than reasonable to me that the state we live in now can hardly be the work of one omnipotent being creating us with an image of peace and love. Well, then we get the whole 'devil' talk to clarify that. not very useful, I'm afraid.

And if God would do anything, you'd expect him to at least handpick his own disciples in this world, the ones in service of the church. But no, apparently that's not the case, since there are more than enough, and have been more than enough, abusing their influence.

All in all, it is highly doubtful.
I will ponder over this some more, and come with a more detailed and expanded response, but my time is limited at the mo.

[Maelstrom]

God does not exist.
Evolution is the art of perfection.

[Athildur]

Nope, evolution is the art of adaptation, nothing more. Perfection does not exist.

[Maelstrom]

Ok - We will continually adapt and eventually become.. Perfect.
Come on man, the avaerage life span in ~300 BCE was 30.
Now people are living to 100+.
Adaptation will eventually equal perfection.

OMG.

Think about it, human beings with infinite life span.
Scary.

[Athildur]

Nope. Actually, nature pulled a prank on us to make us mortal. I won't go into it, lots of biological talk, but it's quite funny and we humans might find a way to take away that mortal aspect. Well, we could still die from wounds and disease, but no longer would we die from old age. Scary, huh?

you see, an immortal man is not perfect. What will happen with overcrowding?

Perfect does not exist, for perfect is almost always tied to a situation with certain aspects. We might be perfect for our conditions, but there the 'perfection' will stop and therefor it cannot really be calle dperfection. Perfection is totally unreachable, though I will not deny that one may be able to get very close...some day, far in the future.

And the fact that we live longer...well, medicine has improved, as has our atmosphere. It has little to do with actual possible lifespan. I'm sure the oldest someone could get, if kept free from all diseases and whatnot, would be lower than ours now, but still that factors in new knowledge acquired.

Average age in terribly poor and unhygenic countries isn't as high as you'd expect.

Humans, above all, will always remain indecisive, and can shift sides like it's nobody's business. That can hardly be attested to perfection.

Immortal humans...brrrr...(though, I wouldn't mind I s'pose...if I had the choice of ending it at anytime...)

[Pimpmaster McSlap-Bitch]

We could become 'perfect'; perfectly suited to our environment, but that`s susceptable to change.

As for the lifespan... I think improving the quality of life in old age is a more important issue as of right now. I`m sure the 30 year olds in 300BCE weren`t suffering from osteroperosis.

[Maelstrom]

Damn. If we are steering away from 'biological talk' then it makes my defense hard to flow lucidly and convincingly. All I will say is this: Due to recent deveolopments in the human genome project, scientists will be able to curb the effects of aging considerably, and they estimate they will see people living over the 200 year mark with these new gene modifications.

And please, let us keep this argument in relative parameters; of course when I say perfect I mean perfection restricted to this world, in this universe.

And how can you say our atmosphere has improved? The amount of Carbon Dioxide, Carbon Monoxide and Sulfur Dioxide we pump into our atmosphere is sickening. Our atmosphere is undeniably getting worse, this can be proven if we turn our attention to the ever increasing asthmatic numbers, which are naturally caused by our ever worsing atmosphere.

My argument remains.

[Athildur]

Well, I actually did a presentation on Carbon Dioxide and the levels we have of it now are lower than they were a few thousand years ago. The simplest answer is that at that time, the 'production' of CO2 wasn't all that high, and nature could overcompensate, causing levels to drop. Until, at one point, our pollution became greater than what nature could process.

And about the biological thing: I didn't mean we should al leave out the bio-babble, but that item in particular I won't discuss. Try googling for telomere or telomerase, because that's what I'm talking about.

[Maelstrom]

There will be a way to slow the effects telomere and telomerase someday.
Ok, so maybe it's not CO2, but it is fact that the increasing asthma crisis is directly linked to the dirtying of our atmosphere.

[godsrighthand]

What are you guys going on about I thought I taught you better than that.
"I am God".

<-- Points to user name.

[Athildur]

No, you're his right hand...big difference. I should know, I'm his left foot .

[Pimpmaster McSlap-Bitch]

My argument remains.

Good

I still don`t think humans will ever become 'perfect'. I`m gonna see if I can break this down lovely like.

What is perfect? I think there are 2 possible answers. I think being perfect is being the best we can be as of right now (keeping this within the limits of time, we could be better in the future but I`d rather not go into that), in which case you could either consider us already A. perfectly human or B. imperfect according to our own ideals and imagination.

So if we`re ever perfect, we`re always completely perfect humans (which includes our human imperfections according to our own ideals and imagination) in the present. If we`re not perfect now, we won`t ever be perfect unless we manage to become as our ideals and imagination wish us to be. The problem with that is it`s impossible.

IMO Perfection relies on our environment as Athi said somewhere. As far as evolution goes, being perfectly suited to our environment, which is susseptable to constant change, is perfection. So how can we ever be perfect if our environment keeps throwing us curveballs? I suppose here we could say an artificial environment that never changes could be possible. Darwin would throw a fit I`m sure.

I`m personally of the mind that being able to survive through anything is the pinnacle of evolution ie perfection. I can`t say too much for technology because honestly I don`t know where to start. Tools are a sign of higher evolution, but we didn`t evolve them, only the means to use or create them. Hmmm....

I dunno, but I guess I`ll say this about technology. Men can live in palaces. Men can live in houses. Men can live on the streets. So how important to our biological perfection can technology really be? If anything the man on the street (or the nomadic peoples if you will) is going to end up more hardy to changes in the environment, while them men indoors won`t be able to handle midsummer or winter.

[Maelstrom]

pimpmaster said:

My argument remains.

If anything the man on the street (or the nomadic peoples if you will) is going to end up more hardy to changes in the environment, while them men indoors won`t be able to handle midsummer or winter.

What if the man on the street dies due to cold.

The man in the house is more adapted to the environment he lives in because he can cope with his ever changing surroundings by protecting himself with the tools he has - I.e. his house. I.e.e. evolution.

[Pimpmaster McSlap-Bitch]

Like I said, I can`t really say too much for technology, because quite frankly I`m not sure where to draw the lines between evolution and technology. And I`m surprised you`d claim that you do so boldly.

So I`ll pose some questions to you.

~~~

It is the house that deals with the changes in the environment, not the human. The human evolved to the point where he can build a house, that which deals with the environment. Is the house a human?

Is a poorly contructed house less evolved than a stronger house?

Are the pets in a mans house as evolved as he is?

Would you call a car highly evolved legs? Or perhaps it is a highly evolved horse...?

A cybernetic left arm may be stronger and more resiliant than the flesh and blood right one. Are robotics more evolved than us?

Ghost in the Shell - A body that is mostly mechanical... is that more highly evolved?

~~~

You see the Pandoras Box you open up by introducing technology into matters of evolution. There is little doubt that use of tools is a mark of higher intelligence, but there are also lower lifeforms that do it too.

Infact, most LIFE seeks protection from harsh conditions. Bears go into caves, birds go south (because they`re nomads), insects crawl into crevices anywhere, including homes that men built. Men don`t really seek protection, they build it. So do some bears, birds and bugs. I`d say a mans home is just animal instinct plus tool intelligence. Any creature with some intelligence can build protection, with less still they can find it.

Biological resiliance/environmental adaptability. That`s my idea of evolutionary perfection. Of course, bring something else to my attention and that` suseptable to change