Do people listen to/follow reason anymore?

[Ancient Goddess]

A couple discussions with my father made me ask this question.

A particular argument we're having caused me to believe he doesn't really care if things are logical or not...but if he has an opinion, he sticks to it...even when he's proven wrong, just out of spite and whatnot. Since I lack the proper resources to do something about things myself, I'm pretty much forced to do whatever he says until I can get the things I need...something that he knows all too well and exploits all too often.

But anyway...that's another story. Only a reason as to why I thought about this topic.

Do people listen to reason?

Most people do what they want to nowadays rather than what they should be doing--which is fine some of the time. It's good to be a bit self-indulgent...healthy, even. But some people focus their lives on what they want to do, and not necessarily what's good for them. Honestly....those type of people don't bother me....but when it involves me, or hinders something that I need to do, it pisses me off.

Seems to me many people base their lives on things that have been taught to the majority as wrong. Greed, lust, envy, etc...those are generally the rules that humanity follow nowadays.

Why? Yes, it is to fulfill their desires, but why not? Everyone wants something, and some people will go through drastic measures to get it. That's the people who follow their appetite and it happens all the time. All people have to at least have some of it. Now most people know the difference between right and wrong (some people just don't care, but at least they have it), and there are some who were taught from birth that doing something wrong was 'right' (ex. stealing or something), so even if their morals have shifted, they still have a generally good perception of reason, regardless if we wouldn't label it as such.

That's how I see it. At least, that's the way I believe things are going today in our world.

Humanity itself is screwed up. Most people in my particular society are sheep who follow a leader. Even if they don't see reason in the situation, they'll do it anyway...just because someone else does it. They tend to want something because someone else has it, and they build their desires off of that. It makes no sense, in my opinion, but I guess there's really nothing we can do to change it.

Anyway...thoughts? Opinions?

[Athildur]

You are 100% correct. I can't add much more to it. the downfall of human society lies in it's egocentrical behavior and it's lack of following proper morals, apart from also being nothing more than a flock of sheep.

People are surprisingly stupid, and that's simply how it is. Perhaps this is partly because we (well, the majority of us) think we're all superior and stuff. the problem is: as long as we keep being so arrogant and ignorant, we'll never be nearly as 'superior' as we'd like to believe.

[Maelstrom]

We are superior. Intellectually superior.
We are herd animals - We flourish in flocks, not as individuals.
The tendency to follow is genetic, we have evolved this way.

[Pimpmaster McSlap-Bitch]

Seems to me many people base their lives on things that have been taught to the majority as wrong. Greed, lust, envy, etc...those are generally the rules that humanity follow nowadays.

Why? Yes, it is to fulfill their desires, but why not? Everyone wants something, and some people will go through drastic measures to get it. That's the people who follow their appetite and it happens all the time. All people have to at least have some of it. Now most people know the difference between right and wrong (some people just don't care, but at least they have it), and there are some who were taught from birth that doing something wrong was 'right' (ex. stealing or something), so even if their morals have shifted, they still have a generally good perception of reason, regardless if we wouldn't label it as such.

I think I was watching CSI (for god knows why) when I heard a phrase simelar to this: 'Life is short, shorter than most or us would like to believe/admit'. And it is. So while we`re on this planet for the short amount of time that we are, we have to do what we can to keep ourselves happy. So we do things that are detrimental to our health because fuck it; we`re all gonna die anyway. We do things that are wrong because fuck it; we`re gonna get something we want while we`re still alive.

Take stealing for example. People steal because they want to or they have to. They want to for a reason; obviously nobody would risk getting caught for no reason. With that said it`s likely the reason one wants to steal is because they want the money (kinda obvious). If you want the money, you go get the money, and if you get the money you`ve got the money, end of story. It`s always a gamble, but the risk is worth it if you get away with it. Whats right and wrong doesn`t matter much if you`ve got what you want... after all, life is short and death is looming, so get yours quick, get rich or die tryin`. It`s a life of greed, lust and envy, but it`s realistic. And we can all lie to ourselves, but no matter how much we do, we ALL want money. Some people are just hungrier.

Society says it`s not reasonable to steal, but the eyes of the individual are completely different than those of society. My eyes anyway. You could say following the American code of ethics or the bible is being a follower.

Anyway, I think I kinda missed the point of what you are getting at, otherwise I`d have probably come to my own definative conclusion by now, so I`m just gonna keep typing shit and let you respond to whatever.

You say some people focus on what they want to do and not what`s good for them. What is good for them and how can you be sure? What is better than following ones will? I can dig what you`re saying about somebody hindering you by doing what they want, but the obvious answer to me seems to be to impose your will on them as they have you. It`s possible, you just need to flip the power somehow.

As for humanity being screwed up, I`m tending to lean towards Maelstroms genetic tendency to follow... I`m sure the tendency to follow is actually extremely contributive to our development as individuals and as a family/culture/society. It starts as children right? Learning through imitation. Perhaps we just take for granted or simply don`t know (or haven`t bothered to think about) how important it is to adults.

[Maelstrom]

Who says stealing it wrong in the first place.
This is the internet people!!

[Ancient Goddess]

Lol...yeah, Kage, you kinda did miss what I meant...a little bit, anyway.

What my points were, were general observations of how the way people seem to be doing/thinking. I never disagreed with the fact that people do what they want to because they want to. In fact...that was a large part of what my post was indicating.

As for the stealing, I also said that for some people, doing 'wrong' things, were right...at least for them, because sometimes, they were taught so by their parents or came to the conclusion on their own. This was what I said:

...and there are some who were taught from birth that doing something wrong was 'right' (ex. stealing or something), so even if their morals have shifted, they still have a generally good perception of reason, regardless if we wouldn't label it as such.

And what I meant by 'what was good for them' was them knowing (by their own perception of what was good and what was wrong) and going down the illogical road because they want something, even when they know the huge consequences that'd happen. It's not really what I believe what's particularly good for them, rather what is based on their own morals and values.

Anyway, I think I kinda missed the point of what you are getting at, otherwise I`d have probably come to my own definative conclusion by now, so I`m just gonna keep typing shit and let you respond to whatever.

The point I was trying to do was getting other people's views on the topic question...My post was just my opinions on the matter.

[Maelstrom]

Maybe you should just give up while you're behind.
I mean.
>_>
I get what ya mean, but i think it's... interesting.

[Ancient Goddess]

Wait a sec....what are you talking about, Maelstrom?

I honestly don't see what you mean by who's 'behind' or ahead in this convo. Kage asked me a question, and I answered it. As simple as that.

And please....feel free to elaborate on what you find particularly interesting about my answer...this is Deep Thoughts, after all.

[Maelstrom]

/me breaks out into a sweat.
What I mean, is I am too inarticulate to express my thoughts concisely and convincinly and it's highly frustrating.
Does anyone else get the same problem? Or have you all been educated by teachers into purple silk robes.
Anyway. I guess the (dare I say) problem with what you're saying is you're restricting it to an individual level. "Everyone wants something, and some people will go through drastic measures to get it." Yes, that is true, but I believe it is the structures that are so dominant in our society that provoke us to think and feel this way.

We need little more than food, shelter, and a few other bits and pieces, yet in this day and age our wants and needs often get mixed up and confused with one another.
Weird, no?

[Ancient Goddess]

Actually...I thought I was being as general as possible.

The reason why I chose to pick individuality, is because I wanted to indicate not everyone goes by popularity's choice and they might want something else that no one else has and whatnot...the trend-starters. However...my last paragraph of my first post did indicate that the majority of society does follow others.

I suppose the reason why I guess I focused a bit more on the individual's point is because I like to think I'm unique. Sure, I take other's people's recommendations if I trust their judgement, and I NEVER follow a trend unless I find elements about it that I like. One of the reasons I hate a lot of aspects of the fashion industry...but meh, I'm getting a bit off-topic.

Anyway...I don't deny that society tends to give people the base of their desires...in fact, I agree with you. But I wanted to point out that not everyone out there follows the ways of society...because, let's face it...there are a few outcasts in the world.

[Pimpmaster McSlap-Bitch]

Despite being taught by professors wearing purple silk gilded robes, I still don`t understand. Anyway, I realise my habit for being confrontational towards peoples ideas, so for once, I think I won`t and just answer the question originally posed.

Do people listen to reason? It depends on if they want to. Once reason is heard it is most likely followed in my experience, with the occasional hard-headed exceptions (cause, well, I`m a reasonable person). I think everybody is reasonable in their own minds, but not everybody is reasonable according to what we might call objective reason, for lack of a better phrase (Like culture, morals or ethics). Even if they know they`re being extreme or in any other way what others would call unreasonable (perhaps they`ve been told so in simelar situations) their reason still holds because they see reason in their actions. Otherwise they wouldn`t be behaving as they do. Naturally. It`s all perspective, and sharing what you think is reasonable may give them some needed or perhaps not additional perspective.

Like a man seeking vengence being told it`s not worth it; perhaps it will cost him his life in the eyes of another, but having been told this information the vengeful only sees this course of action as costing him his valor and honor.

Umm... so, I also have a habit of breaking things down to their foundations and building from there... it`s just what I do... but there`s what I think, dunno if I just restated what you said, but tharr she blows. Certainly feel like I`ve restated what I said, though in a somewhat clearer form.

Now do a group of people follow reason? Fucked if I know. Obviously communication is key, and a great leader to do it. Don`t really get what Maelstroms now saying though... But No, it`s not weird that we confuse our wants and needs

[godsrighthand]

Man is an animal at heart; the modern society reflects this in their attitudes.
From wanting to fulfill their individual desires to the mob mentality in dealing with lawbreakers.

Each has a desire and some legitimate reason. But the actions do not fit the need in proportion to the individual. And the mob acting together to make just law that tramples on the rights of the individuals.

There used to be more of a moral line in making these decisions as individuals and as a society which makes these laws.
Edit: I don’t mean to imply that the congress is wacked but continual refinement squeezes the innocent along with the guilty.

Take each time a refinement is made to Social Security a greater number of people who get hurt are already living far far below poverty level. But the changes keep coming squeezing more and more. It's not one particular change it is the aggregated sum of them that is irrational. You could try to blame one person but you know that it’s not true since it is run by many. However this does not stop them from doing it and feeling justified. Both individual and group common sense has gone to the wind to achieve there goals/desires.